Can Colic Be Cured?
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Jacqueline Lawrence: It’s so hard as a parent to see your newborn baby suffer with tummy pain. Babies' discomfort from colic, gas, and reflux can be devastating for the entire family. You feel completely helpless as they struggle; only being told that they will out-grow it. What is Colic, and can it be cured? I am Jacqueline Lawrence, Founder of Colic Calm Gripe Water, and this is Parent Savers.
KC Wilt: Welcome to Parent Savers broadcasting from the Birth Education Center of San Diego. I am your host, KC Wilt. Parent Savers is all about helping new parents preserve their sanity by getting you expert advice from the baby years through the toddler’s years. Feel free to send us emails or suggestions on our website https://www.parentsavers.com or on our Facebook page and you can call the Parent Savers hotline at 619-866-4775. I am a new parent myself. My son Carson is now 17 months old and I am joined by one new parent here in the studio.
Sunny Gault: Hello everyone, I am Sunny Gault. I am 34 years old. I am actually the host of Parent Savers sister show Preggie Pals, which is all about Pregnancy. And I was pregnant, not pregnant anymore! I just had my little baby a couple of weeks ago and this was our second boy.... and so two kids all together and loving every minute of it.
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KC Wilt: Today on Parent Savers, we have Jacqueline Lawrence, Founder of Colic Calm Gripe Water, here to talk with us about, “Ways to cure Colic”. So, what is Colic? What’s the definition of it?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Oh, that’s actually a tricky question. Although there are many theories they are no scientifically proven causes for Colic. Most experts do agree, however, on the rule of the threes, defined as, “a baby who is otherwise healthy and well-fed, but cries for at least 3 hours a day, 3 times a week for a period of 3 weeks”.
KC Wilt: What if you have like you know 6 hours one day and like one hour the next?
Jacqueline Lawrence: You are right. In general, those are guidelines. Again, it’s pretty tricky, but that is the general frame.
KC Wilt: Ok. So really we are just looking for crying. Is that the main symptom here that we are looking for the most of the times?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right! And there are definitely certain signs that I will get into about the telltale crying.... oh signs.
KC Wilt: Tell me what are they?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right now? Sure. Well, the typical symptoms include vigorous crying for long periods, despite efforts to console. And I think that’s the real key is that it becomes inconsolable. Episodes usually begin and end around the same time of day and pretty abruptly.
KC Wilt: Same time a day, so....
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right.
KC Wilt: What if it's all day?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Oftentimes it can be after meals, specifically that is a very common time and in the evening ....or afternoons.
KC Wilt: Why is that?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Those are particularly difficult. You know, they is a lot of theories: one is that the over stimulation from the day. You have to remember that babies are new to this world, their digestive systems are very immature, so are their nervous systems. So, they are bombarded with all of this stimulus, during the day, stimuli during the day, and at the end of the day, it’s very difficult for them just to shut that out. So, oftentimes that’s when they become particularly irritable and fussy. We’ve all heard of the witching hour, yes and there is various things you can do now, fortunately, to help calm baby at the end of the day, which is typically, even for a normal you know, really healthy child that doesn’t cry very often, is still a very difficult time of the day for most new parents.
KC Wilt: So, it’s not necessarily Colic, it will just be....you know....
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right, that could be just crying from overstimulation from various things. Of course, we’ve eliminated hunger and all the basics like a wet diaper and that sort of thing. And sometimes they just need to be close to parents, you know just the need to feel safe and protected.
Sunny Gault: Are they some babies that are more prone to getting colic, and I am just thinking about new parents out there before they have their baby they may be thinking, “Oh my goodness! [laughs], how.... is they any way to prevent my child getting colic?”
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right. We will definitely talk about things you can do because there is quite a bit, but it’s best to be prepared, to do your homework. I went into [laughs] new motherhood thinking it was going to be very idealistic.
KC Wilt: Alright. I think we all did at some levels.
Jacqueline Lawrence: I had my leave from teaching high school and I was like, “Oh, this is going to be a total bliss, wow!” The reality was definitely a different story. But in the end it turned to be a blessing, so I will tell you all about what we went through and how we overcame it.
KC Wilt: Yeah. What’s the difference between colic, gas and reflux, because we hear those words thrown out so much?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Absolutely. And they are so, in my opinion, they are so closely connected, but persistently trapped gas can definitely be a source of colic.
KC Wilt: So it’s trapped gas?
Jacqueline Lawrence: It will meet the rule of three criteria by definition. So and some babies get more gas than others just like more adults.
KC Wilt: And they can’t just pass it?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Exactly. Gas is totally normal, we all get gas I mean let’s face it right? It’s a manner of how easily it passes. If it gets trapped it is buoyant, so they are plenty of a place it can get trapped and the most painful is often in the intestines, and that’s really where the coordination that comes with development over time plays a part. Yes, they are some babies very few I, find that are born into this world from the very start and function perfectly. Most babies simply have an immature gut, immature system, nervous system, and takes a little while for all those muscles to learn to coordinate effectively so that they can eliminate the gas that is in their system. And remember, that gas can be taken in through the mouth, through crying or nursing or feeding, but it’s also a natural by product of digestion, so it’s created in the intestines and its a matter of how baby can, you know, push that through effectively.
KC Wilt: So is Colic another form of gas or....?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Colic definitely incorporates gas and again it’s a fine line. Is the baby just gassy or is the baby colicky? Nowadays, they are 25% of babies are diagnosed with quote, unquote “Colic”.
KC Wilt: 25%, I would almost think; it would be like 99....
Jacqueline Lawrence: Oh, really?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Yeah, that didn’t happen.
KC Wilt: I was just thinking it was gas. I hated using that term because I decided he’s got an upset tummy. But, “oh its colic”, “oh its colic”, “oh is your baby colic” and I was like, “I don’t like that term…. it’s a bad tummy”. So how does reflux fit into all these?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Well, that is interesting. As for reflux, NPR just run a big story of how over-diagnosed it is this day, and it there has been a growing trend of treating infant colic with prescription drugs like Zantac and Prevacid, which basically suppress the bodies production of stomach acid. So they can result in side effects because they do disrupt the body’s natural digestive processes, especially in delicate developing newborns. So if we take a closer look at reflux which is simply defined as the backward flow of stomach contents into the esophagus, we see that reflux is a normal common process that occurs from time to time in almost everyone, all ages, particularly after meals. Almost all babies will regurgitate or spit up after some feedings, whether they are breastfed or formula-fed. It does peak between 1 to 4 months of age and usually resolves on its own, as the baby’s esophagus sphincter muscles coordinate by 12 months.
KC Wilt: Ok. So is that just reflux or is it that colic and gas as well.
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right. Actually, GERD, as many people improperly term it, is the gastro esophagus reflux disease.
KC Wilt: Yeah, I got diagnosed with that as well. But again I talked to somebody else who is more homeopathic and they said “I think doctors went to a convention and decided to diagnose everybody as that”, because it is very rare, but yeah....so everybody has it.
Jacqueline Lawrence: Yes very, very rare and all of a sudden everybody has it and they got a drug for it. So, they is a lot of gas in gurgling in the baby stomach, and that pressure can certainly force stomach contents back up to, which is why babies often spit up. Again they are developing and they have an esophagus sphincter that takes time to coordinate, like the other muscles in their body and their digestive tract.
KC Wilt: Okay, so....
Jacqueline Lawrence: So very closely related colic, gas and reflux can all be signs of you know, digestive upset.
KC Wilt: And do we just have to live with it until it get older?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Until babies’ work it all out on their own, yes, and my feeling is, the less we interfere and let them figure it out on their own, the better.
KC Wilt: What age does it start and what age is it over, and I asked that because when I brought my son in, who is screamed non-stop for the first month and I am not joking....
Jacqueline Lawrence: I understand.... I know firsthand....
KC Wilt: When I finally took him in to the doctor and he was maybe a week old or something and the lactation consultant, the doctors, everyone kept saying, well he is a little too young to have colic. But you know that it's not just the crying, its the clenching up. Like all of a sudden, he will be out cold and you would see his tummy just gurgle and all of a sudden he would be up screaming, clenching his belly.
Jacqueline Lawrence: They let us know when they are hurting, for sure.
KC Wilt: Yeah, and it wasn’t a spit-up necessarily, you saw his tummy like, you know....
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right, maybe you could even feel the bubbles in the hard tummy.
KC Wilt: But they also said he was too young! And then everyone, other people kept saying, well “don’t worry by month 3 it’s over” but it wasn’t over by month 3. So, what is the age category that typically falls underneath?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right, typically is the keyword. You and I both had a very early on with our children.
KC Wilt: And that is normal, I mean it can be normal?
Jacqueline Lawrence: It can be, it can be. Again they are learning to function for the first time they have never digested food. So it is tricky for them to figure it all out a lot of them, and some have a very, very difficult time, like our children it sounds. Mine was pretty much from the moment we came back from the hospital. I would say 24 hours it started, we didn’t sleep the first night home and talk about rude awakenings, wow! Boot camp!
KC Wilt: Really! Just out of the blues your kid would just start screaming or ....?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Yes, he would not sleep for longer than 20 minutes at a stretch.
KC Wilt: Yeah.
Sunny Gault: Oh, my God.
KC Wilt: What is the 20 minutes thing?
Jacqueline Lawrence: I know, I got 20 minutes just as am dozing off like, “oh phew”, and it’s like, “what torture”, uh. And of course, feeling totally powerless to help this child. I did everything in my human power, to console him and it was beyond me it was something that was going on inside his little body. For sure.
Sunny Gault: See, my son, my first son, who is now 21 months old, he definitely had gas issues. He couldn’t…, he just wasn’t excreting properly. I mean the doctor had me like put him on prune juice and this all kind of stuff and I never you know, classified it as colic. They were definitely times where I could not do anything to console him. You know like am trying to move his little baby legs and do all this stuff just trying....
Jacqueline Lawrence: Yeah, the bicycle, football hold, you know about applying gentle pressure to the tummy.
Sunny Gault: Yeah. Yeah, so I was trying to do all the kind of stuff and for me it was somewhat manageable. Like people kept telling me, “this was normal”, “this was normal”. So, at what point do you say okay, this isn’t normal?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Exactly.
Sunny Gault: This is the problem
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right, right. Really it depends you know on how often it is occurring and how much agony your child is in. I think, if it is just generally fussing and irritability and restlessness, I mean it happens to all kids. But usually around 2 weeks, you will know if baby is got some serious problems dealing, coordinating with everything. So, I would say 2 to 3 weeks is usually when you see some very clear signs of colic. Then it peaks at about 2 months and generally it subsides by 3 ½ - 4 months, but there are cases that’s go on for 6 months and even a year, possibly, very rarely but it could go on a year.
KC Wilt: So how do you know if it gas and colic or just food allergies? Because now I wonder, I mean the doctors kept saying of course, because they are trying to eliminate everything, they say alright, try stop eating this, try stop eating that, but my diet at the time was so inconsistent, I wasn’t really having milk I wasn’t doing all this stuff, so come to 6 months old, I gave him food and he actually he’s got tons and tons of, not necessarily food allergies, because my doctor doesn’t call them that, but food intolerances because....
Jacqueline Lawrence: Sensitivities.
KC Wilt: He will grow out of them. So how do I know if it’s colic or just an allergy?
Jacqueline Lawrence: If it’s an allergy that is a good question because it can definitely be allergy or sensitivity related. They are certain foods or vitamins in moms diet and baby’s diet that certainly might cause a reaction and again nursing; lots of foods passed from mom to infant, so that could be another reason. Common culprits are definitely, number 1 diary. So if you can eliminate diary you might see a huge improvement. A lot of moms can’t do it though [laughs], so, it depends on how bad it is and how much you are willing to, you know, eliminate from your diet. Also acidic fruits and vegetables, high fat foods, caffeine, chocolate all the good stuff basically.
KC Wilt: I know, seriously so. Carbonated beverages, processed foods.
Sunny Gault: Basically, all foods.
Jacqueline Lawrence: Yeah, pretty much it’s a very bland diet, if you want to work on the sensitivities.
Sunny Gault: Would you recommend alleviating one at a time, to kind of monitor them?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Oh, sure. And keeping a daily journal or a log, can help you determine reactions that your baby might be having and an elimination diet can be very helpful, and usually a healthcare provider, will help you with that.
KC Wilt: Awesome. So when we come back we will talk about the Ways We Can Cure Colic. We will be back shortly.
KC Wilt: We are back with Jacqueline Lawrence, Founder of Colic Calm. Let’s talk about cures. So if I go to a doctor, what are they going to do?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Okay! Internal treatment options are fairly limited, but definitely, im-preferable to waiting it out, I would say, having been there my self for 4 months. Well, I had mentioned prescription reflux medications like Zantac and Prevacid, which, in my opinion, should be reserved until all other options has been exhausted. Why not try something natural first and foremost, oftentimes, that’s all you need. But speaking with your doctor is definitely helpful in deciding what is right for you.
KC Wilt: And you recommend it not being the first option?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Right. It really depends on the parent. You know, if that is something they want to try right of the bat, the big guns of pharmaceuticals, up to you really. But I would highly recommend that you do your homework, you know? And that is why this radio show is here so that people know they have options because if they don’t know their options, they don’t have any, right? And so my mission is to let parents know, that they can be their child’s own best advocate.
KC Wilt: Do you know it’s interesting. We actually were seeing one pediatrician and then, we got my son circumcised, and we had to go do a checkup at this pediatrician, who did it and I was talking to him and he just…, instead of...., the first pediatrician gave me his prescription to Zantac, and then this pediatrician just, the first thing off the bat, he said try this bacteria, Lactobacillus reuteri.
Jacqueline Lawrence: Probiotics....
KC Wilt: Helps with it…, and I actually switched pediatricians, even though he has totally different views than me, but we switched pediatricians because he was more prone to try the natural way of just giving me....
Jacqueline Lawrence: I love that....
KC Wilt: And I would have never thought about that. I never would have thought, “Oh I would try Probiotics”, because I would have just trusted my doctor to give me whatever, and of course I told you, they gave me GERD and I was like, “Oh, he got GERD, oh my goodness...”
Jacqueline Lawrence: Oh no....
KC Wilt: So tell me about some other options that we can do to treat this holistically?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Great. Next we have over the counter Simethicone commonly known as Gas drops.
KC Wilt: They are like Mylicon?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Exactly. They are tons of different brands names but all gas drops are made of Simethicone. And it’s a synthetic chemical anti-foaming agent that basically works in theory, by binding the gas bubbles together, at the top of the stomach and hopes that they will be easier to burp out.
KC Wilt: And this would be natural or....?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Not at all. All chemical synthetic anti-forming agents. The best it works on bubbles at the top of the stomach but it does nothing for the very painful intestinal gas, that is of course, a natural byproduct of digestion. It also requires dosing at every feeding; when gas mostly commonly occurs and studies do not show that it works any more than a placebo.
Sunny Gault: So, why would people use it then?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Because up to now it says “Gas drops”, they trust what it says on the shelf. It’s worth a try, especially for desperate parents…...
KC Wilt: And you know, for us, it worked but it wasn’t the miracle drug, but it worked a little bit....
Jacqueline Lawrence: And so it may have just been a placebo….., its hard to know, really....
KC Wilt: It was a good night....
Jacqueline Lawrence: It was a good night, that’s it....I know...a little bit of hope....let you a bit down, though.
Jacqueline Lawrence: There are traditional gripe waters which are dietary supplements and they contain water, sugar, some herbal oils, extract.
KC Wilt: Ginger....
Jacqueline Lawrence: Exactly. A few drops of herbal oils and extracts like ginger, fennel, cumin, curry, chamomile, and a good dose of sodium bicarbonate which is otherwise known as baking soda.
All: Oh, oh
KC Wilt: I have heard of it. Someone gave me that my pregnancy to take to help me with my indigestion.
Jacqueline Lawrence: It can, it can. If you have a very acidic stomach you know, it can neutralize temporarily, which is, you know, its ok as a band-aid approach on occasion. But it even says on Tums, “Do not take for more than 2 weeks” and on the boxes of baking soda it says, “Do not give to babies under 5 years of age”. So, again you have got to look at things, up to now, it’s probably been the best option out there, but again changing the pH balance, is something…, you’re interfering in the baby’s delicate digestive process.
KC Wilt: You’re doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Like, yeah, whatever works....
Jacqueline Lawrence: I know. I mean the study show honestly, that the old-fashioned gripe waters work no better than sugar water, which is a placebo of course. So, yeah it’s tasty.
KC Wilt: We use that and give it to the baby to take the pacifier.
Jacqueline Lawrence: They are sweet....yeah
KC Wilt: And so after trying all these options and actually we found really little relief from Mylicon and some of the gripe waters and I went online to look what are other people showing? and all the other people said Colic Calm and from my understanding Colic Calm has charcoal in it and its funny because just prior to being, having a child, my husband and I were traveling to Indonesia and he got a parasite and the first thing they did was to give him charcoal, we were like, “What the heck is this black stuff?”
Jacqueline Lawrence: The rest of the world knows about this....
KC Wilt: And we don’t....I know and then a friend of mine who is a paramedic he say that’s what we give people who OD on drugs because it absorbs the drugs.
Jacqueline Lawrence: It absorbs....exactly.
KC Wilt: Tell me, how does the charcoal work in colic calm, what is that all about?
Jacqueline Lawrence: It’s true. Activated charcoal sounds a bit weird.
KC Wilt: I know....like you’re barbeque....
Jacqueline Lawrence: We are talking about a pharmaceutical grade, vegetable sourced charcoal which hospitals, doctors know about is used in the ER all the time, for again, treating any kind overload, toxic overload, because it absorbs so nicely. They used to use ipecac but they didn’t like the fact that it was bringing the poisons back up through the esophagus, so, therefore, they resorted, they do see great promises in activated charcoal more and more even though it’s such an old remedy, it dates back to Egyptian times for tummy troubles and gases and that sort of thing. It basically attracts the gases and each molecule of carbon has like all these little tiny tunnels that trap, they basically trap the gas bubbles so it attracts them like a magnet, it traps them. This is all gently and harmlessly. It’s all passing right through the digestive system.
KC Wilt: So it doesn’t mess with the flora or anything?
Jacqueline Lawrence: No. It doesn’t get absorbed into the body in any way it just passes through naturally, fully and gently and it traps all of these gas bubbles that can be causing so much pain and toxins also. So it’s just a wonderful natural remedy that Mother Nature has provided, and we definitely use it in our formula.
KC Wilt: So tell us how does colic calm work? You use the charcoal, anything else?
Jacqueline Lawrence: That’s true. Yes, we have 8 other homeopathic remedies. Each are time-proven, over 100’s of years and all very recognizable nothing scary, aloe, blackthorn, caraway, chamomile, lemon balm, fennel, ginger, peppermint, and they are all in micro-doses, so super small amounts. Each remedy that we use is on the FDA's gross list which is generally recognized as safe and they all come from the HPUS (Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States) so it’s just a combination. These are age-old remedies, it’s a combination that is just so novel, safe and effective.
KC Wilt: And how quickly will you see results after using something like this?
Jacqueline Lawrence: That’s the great thing. Everybody, we live in a you, know, a day and age of instant gratification. If something doesn’t show pretty measurable results on the first dose, we are going to chuck it, right? Move on to the next. And that’s what we deliver. Of course, the younger the baby, usually the results are more obvious because you know, as baby gets older…..
KC Wilt: How old do you keep giving it to them? I mean, do you give....
Jacqueline Lawrence: It really depends how often they need it. The other beauty of colic calm is that it’s only as needed. And a little goes a long way and babies love the taste, I mean love it! So it’s easy to administer. Nobody wants to fight with their baby to take something… uh, and so yeah within minutes…., because usually, they love the taste, so they are surprised, pleasantly surprised and “Mmmm, what’s this?”, and then they forget that they are no longer in pain, so we are all happy. But we can turn it on the dime its pretty amazing most of the time, yes.
Sunny Gault: And you probably wish you had this when your son was born?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Of course, but I wouldn’t have had a second child without this product so…, and we did and we ran the same trajectory, it was a carbon copy. People said it couldn’t happen twice. We have so many…., we have thousands of testimonials and many of them are parents saying
“ You know what? We would not have had more children!” So it can be so traumatic. I have talked to moms, that had it 30 years ago, and they are like “Colic! Oh I remember! What a nightmare!” So it’s really nice that these days there is a pretty amazing option.
KC Wilt: Can you use this in conjunction with the medicine? So if the doctor gives you Zantac, do you use Colic Calm with it or gripe water or Mylicon?
Jacqueline Lawrence: You know there is really isn’t a need. Unless the baby has a medical condition…, this is pretty much a miracle in a bottle for good reason…, that’s what customers tell us all the time. And you don’t want to give them more than they need. And our philosophy is really, step in and help baby when they need help the most. All in stimulating their own self-healing. That’s another wonderful thing about homeopathy. The basic principle is that you are helping the baby to self-heal. Isn’t that wonderful? Instead of suppressing symptoms, you are encouraging their own body to figure it out on their own.
KC Wilt: So, but Probiotics and Colic Calm could work well together?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Oh, absolutely, perfect combination, those two. But in terms of, you know, a reflux medication and Colic Calm, pretty much not needed.
KC Wilt: Any last tips to tell parents out there to help them with their colicky babies like infant massage?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Definitely. All of those wonderful things that create you know, relaxing environment are so soothing for baby and mom and dad.
KC Wilt: So you think it helps them pass gas easier if they’ve just kind of relaxed?
Jacqueline Lawrence: Sure absolutely. Whose, you know, who's going to be able to perform under tension? Right? It just makes sense. The more relaxed, the more comforting and loving...
KC Wilt: Upright positions, they say...
Jacqueline Lawrence: That can help a lot definitely. Again bouncing on the ball, vertically, very gently and they say a 45 degree angle is very helpful for babies, because totally upright might cause more pressure on their tummy. So, it depends, if they have just eaten and they are tummies are full; you know, you have to work with the angle. Again every baby is a little different, so trial and error you’ve got to find just the right things for your little one.
Sunny Gault: I learned how to nurse my child with him sitting on my lap, like infant, like upright, so that he controlled the flow and then, also his tummy was up and like we saw a world of difference with his gas as well.
Jacqueline Lawrence: Great. It’s working trial and error working out those techniques and getting all the help you need.
KC Wilt: Thanks to Jacqueline Lawrence for helping us learn about Curing Colic. If you want more information on Colic Calm, go to today’s show on the Episodes page of https://www.parentsavers.com or visit https://www.coliccalm.com . And if you would like to win a free bottle of Colic Calm, simply visit the contest page on the website or visit our Facebook fan page for details.
[Featured Segment: Ask The Experts - Seeking a Postpartum Doula]
KC Wilt: Before we wrap up today’s show, here is a question for one of our experts.
Lisa: Hi, this is Lisa from Australia again. I have a question for Parent Savers for the Postpartum Doula. So, I have heard that in some European countries the government actually provides every new mother with a postpartum doula. So, I know that that is probably not possible here in the United States, but are postpartum doula’s at least covered by Health Insurance here? Thank you.
Rosemary Mason: Hi, this is Rosemary Mason, and I am a postpartum doula and I am really happy to answer your question. Yes, there is insurance reimbursement for birth and postpartum doulas. There is a form on the donor website that you can download or we can send one to you to give to your clients. And on that we give the diagnostic code and CPT code; things that insurance company would need and you would just personally then call or have your client call the insurance company. Their insurance company; give them these codes, tell them what it’s for, for postpartum or labor support, and they would give you what the recommendation is or how many visits you get. Not all insurance covers doula work at this time, but we are working on that, so the more people that call in and ask about doula work, then the more need that the insurance will see there is a need of that. So if you have any other questions, just call the line and we will get back to you on that. Thank you so much. Bye, bye.
KC Wilt: That wraps up today’s episode. We would love to hear from you. If you have any questions for our expert about today’s show or the topics we discussed, call our Parent Savers hotline at 619-866-4775 or send us an email through our website https://www.parentsavers.com or our Facebook page and we will answer your question in an upcoming episode. Thanks for listening to Parent Savers, empowering new parents everywhere.
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